So, I have this Young Green Dragon...

The doppleganger interrupted us in the middle of our meeting in the courtyard. There was no need for us to specify if we were there because Stu stated he was going to have the meeting with specific people present, and specified where we'd be. Don't know why he invited Gabby though, since she wasn't with us when we got the dragon. Maybe he thinks she's hot.

So yes, the forum rules were followed.

Five real days passed between the time Deslocke asked to be the negotiator and the doppleganger meeting.

Not trying to speak for others, but I was under the impression that Deslocke was the party negotiator and that his meeting with the doppleganger was sometime after the meeting with the party.

hmmm...don't think the real days passing has bearing on the matter. If the elf did want a separate venue he should have started a new topic, or at least clearly stated where he was and who was around him and ideally when the meeting took place. By posting immediately after my post, it really does interrupt the meeting the party was having. Any evidence to the contrary?

Oh no, I've been admonish.
One last thing, Brad did fail to post any time change for the encounter and the party can hold him on that but Brad has told you that it wasn't the doppleganger intent to meet with Deslocke until later after the PC meeting. Do you not take Brad's word as a DM on how it was suppose to have play out?
Oh well, I'll stop posting my 2 cent then. I wouldn't want to be admonish again.

Now, you were only mildly admonished as opposed to "scolded". Brad needs to be "scolded" for not following the forum rules and precipitating this entire line of discussion.
Mick, I welcome your two cents (or five cents), it's almost as much fun verbally sparring with you on the forums as it is sparring with Brad using Martial Arts. I'll try my best not to dislocate your finger while we're chatting on the electronic boards... heh heh...

No problem Stu, I have 5 resist admonish.
I was just adding a 3rd party point of view that wasn't as party favorable, but possible.

Clip from a private email with Brad:
[Brad] Love your posts... but you seem to be trying to stir up trouble! :-)
[Mick] Hehe! Really, would I do that?
[Brad] Hell YES!! :-)

This is Sean Hawkens in no way connected to this timeline just stating that give him his share of money when/if we ever get it. Sean also wonders why we are hanging out at the keep when we have our own watchtower that I am assuming is fully operational as our staging point.

Ross wrote:Uh, don't have to be businessmen to have a private consultation about decisions.

The same reply indicated that 2 days was not enough time to discuss in private. That strongly suggests that everyone is not in the keep, let alone within line of sight. You're right, but you're reaching, I think.

Teramotos wrote:
Deslocke is good. Deslocke knows that he is facing a doppleganger, of that he is 100% sure as he shapechanged in front of me. It is Deslocke's understanding that the doppleganger has threatened harm to the good people living nearby.

'Doppelganger' makes no nevermind, they're like Humans, unaligned and all over the map re: good/evil. If we read the posts, he obviously has severe disinterest for the well being of Humans, but never threatened anyone at all. He was trying to negotiate the release of his ally. He, in fact, advocated to keep the original trade location to PROTECT Humans, understanding the malicious intent of the Wyrm upon his release. While he is of course clearly evil at heart, he committed absolutely no crime whatsoever... yet. Nor threatened any. (It is D&D, so we all know a double cross was coming though!) :-)
Re: "Deslocke is good", I'd say attacking without warning, someone who has done nothing, is far more borderline non-good than using a poisoned dagger. It is absolutely not LG, but I'd put it much more an unaligned act than a good. How would we feel if we saw a policeman shoot someone on the street in ambush? Would a "he's part of the Capone gang" justify the shooting? I hope not. "Good" should need more than that, and doesn't kill people simply because they don't like their politics... they wait until they commit a crime or an evil act, or in defense of an innocent. Like Rick Moranis said in Spaceballs, "That's why good will never triumph over evil. Good is dumb."

Teramotos wrote:hmmm...don't think the real days passing has bearing on the matter.

Since it was my bad not minding the banter rules, fine. I think we all understand the intent though, but we'll go with the letter in this case, with the exception that Gabby, as my PC wouldn't be there, simply for conflict of interest purposes.
Sean, Zazoo, Reptis, Esprit, Deslocke, and whatever standard evening patrol would be on duty is present. Let's lay it all out & play it out starting this weekend. Could be fun! :-)
Post Script: The time of day was not mentioned either in any of the posts, so I'm going to say this is just before dusk. The party went to the courtyard sometime after everyone ate dinner to talk. That is the most obvious time the Doppelganger would initiate contact... He usually meets enemies after dark (when they're sleeping), but he was on a mission of parlay this time, so met you just before everyone went to bed.
PPS: Unless someone posts some compelling justification, I don't see where a bluff v. insight roll for surprise is applicable, so we'll just go with initiative rolls.
I think that's fair to everyone (except the Dopp...)

Good - repeating points from our conversation on the phone, it was Deslocke's clear understanding that the Doppleganger was threatening the local people with harm and property damage. Although that was not the Doppleganger's intent, that's how Deslocke understood it. Either the Doppleganger didn't communicate clearly, or Deslocke plain mis-understood him.
Deslocke (well before the discussion on surprise) is asking the Doppleganger to surrender and it was my intent to heal him immediately if he goes down. From Deslocke's point of view, this creature has clearly revealed to me that he is associated with the Dopplegangers we just defeated and he is threatening innocent people (that's how I understood it).
If making a first strike on a Doppleganger (who in Deslocke's mind is threatening to be a party to killing innocent people) is an evil act, it is not as evil as say, killing the Doppleganger after he is down and helpless...

David,
Sean might be present as we had just concluded the adventure where we captured the dragon in the first place and we had all, as a party returned to the keep to give Lord Manderin our report. We owed him that at least as we had his guards bring the captured Dopplegangers from the warehouse back to the keep.
Stuart

Teramotos wrote:it was Deslocke's clear understanding that the Doppleganger was threatening the local people with harm and property damage.

Just for point of interest, what gave you that understanding? ...I was trying to paint him as, yes, clearly evil, but minding his P's & Q's in negotiations. Is there really anything you can point to as threatening anyone?
Re: "Good". It's a stretch imo. It's clearly not lawful nor honorable. I guess the rules of parley "are more guidelines than actual rules"...

...when the doppleganger made inuendos that the dragon being released in the local area would result in many innocent people being killed. Deslocke thought that was the doppleganger's intent after they had possesion of the dragon again. After talking to Brad (the DM) on the phone, and after reading the doppleganger's posts several times slowly, yes, now I understanding that his threat was a backhanded threat, kind of like when I imply at work that "I have to review ALL of my options." which means "...if you guys don't start making the parts I have on order with you on time and on schedule, I'm going to move the work somewhere else!". So yes, his hidden threat and duplicity in feinting compassion led Deslocke to missunderstand the doppleganger's intentions.

When Deslocke was speaking to the Doppleganger, I assert that we were negotiating. Deslocke was stating assumptions, attempting to get the other party to reveal the reasons behind thier offer or position. Deslocke stated the reasons behind his position of not immediately accepting the doppleganger's offer. Deslocke also clearly invited the doppleganger to respond, isn't that parlaying?

[quote="Spur"]"I didn't want to get the thieves in trouble."

Mick wrote:No problem Stu, I have 5 resist admonish.
I was just adding a 3rd party point of view that wasn't as party favorable, but possible.

Clip from a private email with Brad:
[Brad] Love your posts... but you seem to be trying to stir up trouble! :-)
[Mick] Hehe! Really, would I do that?
[Brad] Hell YES!! :-)

Teramotos wrote:...When Deslocke was speaking to the Doppleganger, I assert that we were negotiating.

So, is your position that this would have dropped his guard enough in hostile territory that a opposed check for surprise is in order? If you really think this is enough, we can use it as setting a precident, but I would think this would help monsters more than PCs, as usually it'll be the monsters attacking first. We'll take a free bluff v. insight check for a surprise round attack... I'd say it's not quite the set up of the Storm Troopers turning on the Jedi!

Anyway, let's set this up! Stu, can you post something showing the courtyard here, shall we wait until our next game & roleplay this in person?

Should the online thing we playtested once work for this? Everyone jump on vent on evening?

It's been awhile since I've tested it. I'll try it out tonight and see if it's still fine. I don't see why it wouldn't but you never know.

Okay Brad, here's the situation...

I looked and cannot find my 15+ year old sketch of the keep. I did find both my non-dimensioned area concept; lists all the areas of the keep and their locations relative to each other, and I found a sketch of the lower docks area. From what I can derive, the courtyard would be 150' wide on the outside walls, north to south. The dragon would be either in the northwest or southwest corner of the courtyard (highest walls with the most archer positions that are out of the dragon's breath range). There would be a number of wooden buildings built inside the keep walls, along the courtyard perimeter. These buildings would extend no more than 20' toward the middle of the courtyard. Included in these buildings would be; a blacksmith, large stables, warehouse space, kennel, a small shrine/temple, and a cavalry armory including additional seige engines. The main gatehouse would be to the east and the keep proper would be to the west, on the water.

Therefore, I sense that Deslocke would have been on the parade ground, out of ear shot of the dragon. Assuming that the courtyard is generally square, that means the open area would be around 110' square, which makes sense as that would allow a horse to do two rounds of movement in a straight line so they could set up a jousting tilt in the courtyard if they needed to. So, Deslocke and the others are likely nearer the east end of the courtyard, more toward the maingate than the keep proper. Rather than standing in the way of drilling troops, the group is likely near one of the walls, either north (stables), south (warehouse and kennel). If you, the DM, rule the group is near the maingatehouse, that is also where the greatest concentration of on duty guards would be. Under non-alert conditions during the day, there would be a Captain (5th+) character, one or two characters of the 2nd - 4th, and around two to six troopers, 24x7x365 on duty at the main gate. If the doppleganger makes a run for the main gate, these men would attempt to either grab him, close the two porticullis, attack him, or all three. It would take too long to close the heavy wooden gates.

The gatehouse and barbican would be about 30' x 30' with a 25' long x 12' wide tunnel. Toward the outside, there's a heavy wooden drawbridge over a moat of lake water with a porticullis. On the inside, there's a second porticullis and a pair of stout fitted reinforced oaken doors.

During a normal day, there should be a very high chance of squads of troops using the courtyard for exercises, swordsmanship, spear and shield use, marching, riding, fighting in formation, etc. Note, there is not an archery range inside the courtyard, the archery range is outside the maingate toward the village. The curtain wall surrounding the courtyard would have a small watchtower every 50' to allow fire along the face of the wall in addition to the larger round towers at the corners. Therefore, there would be two small watchtowers along the north and south wall and along the east wall, there would be the main gate and a small watchtower to the north and south and then the larger round towers on the corners. The small watch towers, and even the larger round towers would likely not be manned during the day. There would be a chance of off duty soldiers walking the walls or using the open space of the tower tops to rest, gamble, etc.

So, there's the description of the area. You can either determine (randomly) where Deslocke is, or, if you leave it up to me, he'll be near the south wall, near the warehouse area, 60' from the main gate and 15' from the doppleganger. You'll have to decide who is there. For ease, if you're planning on doing this on Saturday, then just say all the PC's who happen to show up, are there. The hard part will be determining what NPC's are there. If you want a recommendation, here it is, one 6th Level Captain at the gate with two 3rd Lev Elites and four 1st Lev Troopers, two on the ground to open the gates and two up high on the wall (archers). On the large round corner towers, there will happen to be three off duty troopers (who don't know how to use the artillery but who do either have thier own bows, or can pick up crossbows meant for auxilleries) at either the north or south tower.

In the courtyard, there will be no regular cavalry drilling, but there will be two 3rd Lev mounted and armored Elites training with the saber against melons on poles. There will be one squad (10 men + 3rd Sgt) doing exercises in the middle of the yard. They are not armed or armored, but their shields and arms (swords and bows) are stacked nearby. There would be no other special, high level leaders immediately around, but since the shrine is in the courtyard, the keep priestess (7th Lev) would appear in the doorway of the shrine after one or two rounds of commotion.

You'll have to decide if there is a surprise round. If there is no surprise round, you'll have to decide if Deslocke receives any bonus to initiative since the doppleganger did start to walk away from me. If we just have regular initiative, you'll have to decide what the doppleganger does if it wins the initiative, since Deslocke would not have done anything yet. If you want my recommendation, we will do regular initiative and Deslocke receives a + 4 bonus and if the doppleganger wins, we can pretend he had a flashback from 3.5, read Deslocke's mind, predicted the attack and thus the Doppleganger can make a first strike.

Since this isn't a "regular" encounter, I'm not expecting to receive any treasure or experience from it, especially since the doppleganger, even if it is a solo monster, should logically be facing forces far greater than the usual band of 5 player characters. Discuss...

Alternately, you can just forgo the whole thing by...
Saying he gives up as he was just a lesser doppleganger and not the main, recurring one. Heck, if he were the main, smart, evil foe, would he walk right into Corona Keep and reveal himself? For all he knows, the Lord of the Land (10th Lev), and several of his Captains (all 6th) could be getting ready to go out for a ride right now. No halfway intelligent evil NPC would risk near certain capture or death unless they really, really had to or unless they had an ego of huge proportions.

...or, you can say he IS the main bad guy and just surrenders. Then off line, he manages to escape. This might be preferable to risking your main evil bad guy falling into the hands of the party where we could come up with any number of ways to make sure he never commits an evil act, ever, ever, again.

"if you leave it up to me, he'll be near the south wall, near the warehouse area, 60' from the main gate and 15' from the doppleganger."

Location is fine, but you'd be adjacent, not 15' away from the Doppelganger according to your posts. (You were attempting to melee him.)

"For ease, if you're planning on doing this on Saturday, then just say all the PC's who happen to show up, are there."

Sounds good to me (sans Gabby)

"If you want a recommendation, here it is, one 6th Level Captain at the gate with two 3rd Lev Elites and four 1st Lev Troopers, two on the ground to open the gates and two up high on the wall (archers)."

That's fine, but we set the time right before dusk after dinner, and since it's getting dark, I would say that Humans wouldn't be drilling and definately not mounted drills.

" if the doppleganger wins, we can pretend he had a flashback from 3.5, read Deslocke's mind, predicted the attack and thus the Doppleganger can make a first strike."

None of that is necessary. If the Dopp wins, it's because the Dopp saw you on the draw and was faster than you (which is most likely the case).

Surprise is definately not appropriate per the guidelines of surprise, neither do I think any bonus to init is either, but I don't think it's worth a long debate, so let's just compromise & say Deslocke has +2 to his init roll. (Which I think is pretty generous, since that can lead to precident that EVERY combat has situation modifiers, which for simplicity, there isn't.)

"Alternately, you can just forgo the whole thing by..."

What fun is that? :-)

Hmmm, the doppleganger started to walk away from me, from my posts, I started with Cascade of Light (a ranged attack) and then followed up with a thrown weapon and another ranged attack. At no time did Deslocke ever attempt to melee the doppleganger.

Please cite the post where Deslocke attempted to melee the doppleganger. Also, if you are saying the doppleganger saw me start to draw a weapon, that is in error as my first attack, from my posts, is a magical attack. As such, you can say the doppleganger made an Arcane check and knows that I'm about to do a spell, not draw a weapon.

Please either cite my post where I attempt to melee the doppleganger, or I recommend that the distance between us be something other than 5', more likely it should be 10' or 15' as Deslocke didn't even think about taking action until after the doppleganger started to walk away. If I am in error, please let me know.