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moving through enemy squares

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1 moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:47 am

Can you move through an enemy square if he's stunned? You can if they're prone, right?

The 'sort of' slain Vampires can take a move action only until they heal, so as far as moving through their square, I think we'll treat it as a stunned creature since I can't think of anything closer.

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2 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:24 am

I posted in the online forum because I didn't see this thread...

Occupied Squares
A creature is considered to occupy the square or
squares within its space.

MOVING THROUGH OCCUPIED SQUARES
✦ Ally: You can move through a square occupied by an ally.

✦ Enemy: You normally can’t move through an enemy’s space unless that enemy is helpless or two size
categories larger or smaller than you.

Moving into a nonhelpless enemy’s space provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy,
because you left a square adjacent to the enemy. (Some powers let you move through an enemy’s
square without provoking an opportunity attack.)

✦ Ending Movement: You can end your movement in an ally’s square only if the ally is prone. You can
end your movement in an enemy’s square only if the enemy is helpless. However, Tiny creatures can end
their movement in a larger creature’s square. If you don’t have enough movement remaining to reach a
square you are allowed to be in, your move ends in the last square you could occupy.

✦ Standing Up: If you’re prone and in the same square as another creature, see “Stand Up,” page 292, for
how to stand up.

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3 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:33 am

Dwarmaj wrote:✦ Enemy: You normally can’t move through an enemy’s space unless that enemy is helpless or two size
categories larger or smaller than you.

Okay, changed my mind then. 'quasi-slain' Vampires are 'coup-de-grace'-able and only get move actions, (can't attack; only trash talk &/or run away), so "helpless" is the closest status to give them.

You still can't end in their square but you can go through them. To be consistent, which probably won't apply after this adventure ever, likewise if a PC doesn't have a stake, fire, decapitation, etc, he can't do anything to an already 'quasi-slain' Vamp, and I'm going to consider that PC helpless too regarding moving through squares.

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4 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:40 pm

So, a quasi-slain vampire is being classed as "Helpless", thus allowing PC's to move through their square. I don't understand the part about classifying PC's as "Helpless"...clarify please.

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5 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:45 pm

Teramotos wrote:So, a quasi-slain vampire is being classed as "Helpless", thus allowing PC's to move through their square. I don't understand the part about classifying PC's as "Helpless"...clarify please.

He's saying that we're helpless if we can't affect them.

I guess we could still grab them, we just can't do any damage if we don't have a sword, wooden stake, or fire/radiant weapon/damage.

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6 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:01 pm

Dwarmaj wrote:
He's saying that we're helpless if we can't affect them.

I guess we could still grab them, we just can't do any damage if we don't have a sword, wooden stake, or fire/radiant weapon/damage.

Yup. Exactly. It's like Sean Connery & Nick Cage in "The Rock" when the dead guy's leg was still twitching... "What'd you want me to do, kill him again?" Without a proper weapon, all you can do is kill them again, which changes nothing, really...

Besides, I don't expect it'll ever come up after this adventure. (Probably after this encounter...)

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7 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:03 pm

Teramotos wrote:So, a quasi-slain vampire is being classed as "Helpless", thus allowing PC's to move through their square...

...and allowing them to be coup de graced.

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8 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:44 pm

however, "Helpless" implies defenseless and even if you can't damage the opponent, you can still push them away, block, and dodge.

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9 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:58 pm

Good to see you posting Stu! I hope that means that your hand is better and your gonig to join us in the online game soon!

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10 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:09 pm

Teramotos wrote:however, "Helpless" implies defenseless and even if you can't damage the opponent, you can still push them away, block, and dodge.

Not DEfenseless, but OFFenseless. In martial arts, we know that if an opponent is willing to accept anything you throw at them to get to your square, they're going to get to your square. I think that's a fair enough ruling, and will only come into play on a freak occurance.

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11 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:00 pm

Ross

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Just because you can't damage something doesn't mean your still not a threat unless you meet specific qualification. Even if your stunned your not considered helpless.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

12 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:10 pm

...agree, if a monster say had Resist 20 all and you only had a longsword and were + 5 to damage say (max damage 13), you couldn't damage the monster but you still would not be "helpless". I don't agree with the classification of helpless, why not just break the rules and say in the Buffy Verse, dead vamps can move through PC's squares if the PC doesn't have a weapon that can affect but the PC still gets an AoO (who knows, may have a power to stop movement or prone the vamp or something).

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13 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:21 pm

Teramotos wrote:...why not just break the rules and say in the Buffy Verse, dead vamps can move through PC's squares if the PC doesn't have a weapon that can affect.

There are no 'dead' Undead in D&D like in BTVS, so that's what we are doing. If we want to say that Angel shouldn't have been able to bypass the 'dead' Vamp in the hallway, I've no problem with keeping things consistent.

I suspect it's worse for the players this way, as the PCs are usually outnumbered, and the ratio of unequipped PCs vs. 'quasi-slain' Vamps will be incredibly tilted...

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14 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:26 pm

Ross

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Once again, even if you can't damage something doesn't mean your considered helpless. If you want to stick to the rules you aren't going to be able to let dying vamps pass through non-helpless creatures squares. You'll have to house rule it to get your way.

Really if a dying vampire is still able to take actions he shouldn't be considered helpless either.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

15 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:31 pm

Ross

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Admin
I don't even think we need to allow coup de gras against the dying vampires either. Just say they have to be hit by a killing attack to drop them. Otherwise just let them have their move actions.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

16 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:38 pm

Ross wrote:I don't even think we need to allow coup de gras against the dying vampires either. Just say they have to be hit by a killing attack to drop them. Otherwise just let them have their move actions.

CDG doesn't need a 'to-hit' roll, and you can use a feat to gain it as a minor. We may have ruled badly on moving thru squares, but I want to keep this one. Besides, this seems to best approximate the show...

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17 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:42 pm

Ross

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Admin
So the house rule is that a 'dying' vampire can move anywhere without provoking? How about provoking from someone that has a stake or a slicing weapon? They are definitely a threat, right?


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

18 Re: moving through enemy squares on Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:47 pm

I think the only ones that this affects would be Angel and Ember since neither wield a sword.

I can have a stake in my offhand in heroic, but will be unarmed/dagger in paragon.

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