So, I have this Young Green Dragon...

Deslocke, standing in the courtyard of Corona Keep, in the presence of; Espirit, Sean, Reptis, Zazoo and Gabby too, says; "Well, we've captured this dragon, who's going to pay for its food? Are we paying Lord Corona to guard it? Should we try to sell it to some ultra powerful adventurer that lives in Dray? I'm sure that someone out there can train this dragon to be a cool mount. What do you all think?" Deslocke says all of this out of earshot of Venom.
DM Note: Lord Corona does not have the desire to have this dragon living at his keep on a long term basis. For at least a couple weeks, he will keep it under (heavy) guard so that it does not pose a threat to the surrounding villages and local trade routes. Lord Corona does not have enough funds to purchase the dragon from the party.

I say try to find a buyer, or just let it go.

I'd say sell it, though I think the money we'd get my upset the PC wealth guidelines.

Unlike the drakes, a dragon will be worth a lot more (although untrained it could be worth 10s of thousands of gp).

Oh, the reduced market value for magic items is only for magic items. Other things of value (gems, jewelry, and art) can still be sold for their gp value.

We would split the dragon 5 ways, right. So it shouldn't really mess up the balance of the game. Also, we do have the house rules in to keep the magic item balance in check.

Westron Magic Item House Rule

Dwarmaj wrote:the reduced market value for magic items is only for magic items. Other things of value (gems, jewelry, and art) can still be sold for their gp value.

Hmm... I would think a special 'item', like a rage drake, needlefang drake, and especially a captured Dragon, would all definately count more towards the magic item end than the jewelry end... there is far less of a ready market.
What does everyone else think? What's the best balance of simplicity & realism here?
As soon as Gabby is appropriate level, can she just buy a unicorn from the book? ...She definately wants one! :-)

I don't know why, but unicorns aren't listed as possible mounts. The MM lists Nightmares as "Large shadow magical beast (mount)", but the Unicorn has no "mount" descriptor.

If one were to be used as a mount, it'll cost at least as much as a Nightmare (25,000 gp)

Didn't catch that... I did notice I couldn't find pegasi in the new MM. Griffons read as being pretty common though.
Right now Gabby has 4pg, so it's not an urgent issue for her, but how are we going to rule on unusal mounts? ...there was a reason I was looking at pegasi & unicorns! :-)
Post Script: Gabby does NOT want a nightmare! :-( ...unless there's a goodly version.

I'm thinking a Nightmare fits perfectly for Gabby. A Hell Hound would probably do fine also. Unicorn or Pegasi, definitely not. They are good aligned.

Deslocke, still with everyone around,
"I say we sell it and split the proceeds five ways then. If the group allows it, I'll be willing to act as negotiator on the group's behalf. I have some experience negotiating for my church."
No, you can't just buy unusual mounts for the "book" price. They have to be available and only the DM can rule if they are available. Agree with Ross that if we split the proceeds five ways and with the magic item wealth limit, balance should be maintained. Holy smokes, a young green dragon has got to be worth just a ton! Also, its not a magic item and I'd say that it would not be affected nearly as much, if at all by the magic item resale rules.

An 'Elf' looking remarkably similar to that of Deslocke's clan, except wearing an insignia of a star with 5 wavy points on his chest, approaches Deslocke. You note he is especially graceful and silent in his stride...
"I understand you hold a mighty and noble creature for ransom. I represent powerful interests that would see the young Emerald Wyrm set free. We are willing to offer 5 customly crafted items {level 9, assuming we're 5th-6th, i.e., one per PC who can play} of your choosing, if Venom has been well treated and you bring him to {hands you a map with a location marked, several days out and deep in the forest} to arrange a trade on {names a date after we have time for the next 2 adventures}. I'll be here for another couple days before leaving to have our crafters work on your trade... IF Venom has been well treated and at the arranged place & time."
Passive insight check tells you the offer is legitimate, though not to be totally trusted.
Knowledge nature check tells you that Orcs & occasional Giants have been known to inhabit that forest. (Few Humans travel there & wild)
Active perception reveals nothing, he looks exactly like an Elf of your tribe, but you suspect you're dealing with a Doppelganger, as he doesn't know an aweful lot of Elven lore. He does speak to you in very good Elvish though, and not the Common tounge.

Deslocke - "I didn't catch your name kind sir, I, Deslocke beg your forgiveness. The dragon is very large and difficult to move safely. We cannot risk it escaping in transit and harming the local people. If we were to tranport the dragon locally, I'm sure the lord would insist on a large troop of his soldiers going with us. Since you are offering easy to carry items, why don't you come here, at least to the village with the items and we can discuss the matter in the comfort of the inn with fine drink and good food rather that at a rugged campsite?

Also, I cannot immediately accept your kind offer as is, you must understand I need to confer with my fellows who all have an interest in the matter. Lastly, two days is not enough time for us to consider your offer as there are others who have expressed a desire for the creature. This is a rare opportunity and if you and any associates are really interested, you will consider extending us some additional time and you will come to here to the village. If the village is too far, may I suggest a village mid-way between here and the location you've marked on the map as a "neutral" meeting point. Be sure that the dragon has been well treated, and of course the dragon will remain here while we meet to finalize any agreement."

Deslocke waits for a reply and uses insight to attempt to determine how the "elf" feels about Deslocke's proposal.

Reptis watches the exchange with interest, and some suspicion.

Deciding a bit of testing is in order to determine the elf's allegiance, he suddenly asks "do you speak draconian as well, doppleganger?" in draconian while watching closely for the elf's response.

If he's been well treated, that's what's key for now. If you need longer than 2 days, that can be negotiated, though I can't promise our crafters can custom build your requests in time, and residuum may have to substitute. As far as the meeting location, {obviously feigning compassion now} it is in the interest of the local people here that I'm thinking! {With a sly smile}, once Venom is set free, would you rather him among Orcs... or these Humans? What do you expect an angry Emerald Wyrm to want after release from captivity? {slight chuckle to himself} {mocking compassion again} I'd just hate to be responsible for Human blood when he's released and hunting free...

{Turning deadly serious again} Rest assured that after his release, he, and we, will be traveling many leagues south...

(looking around to make sure no one else is watching...) And I can give you a name but {changing to a dark haired, deep voiced Elf instead} we both know I'll just change it later... {smiles}

...Talk to your comrades, I'll be around town and will follow up with you again.

Trevor wrote:"do you speak draconian as well, doppleganger?" in draconian while watching closely for the elf's response.

As he's leaving Deslocke, he turns to you and says (in Draconian) "Of course." (He's now a dark haired Elf)
Noting the direction he leaves, and quickly checking the jail, you note that this is NOT Mystire, as he's still locked away...
Hey! I just thought about this... He (and I assume Deslocke) are speaking in Elvish. I'm not sure if Reptis understands Elvish. If Deslocke is answering back in Common, I'm sure you get the jist though...

OOC: Reptis could not understand what they were discussing, he just asked randomly as a test. Reptis knows that dopplegangers are aligned with the dragon, and that they can speak draconian. Since I asked before he made it apparent that he's a doppleganger, my intent was just to determine a) if he was able to speak draconian, and b) if he was possibly another doppleganger.

If he was a normal elf he'd probably have no idea what I said, or if he did understand draconian he would be confused by me calling him a doppleganger. Obviously, that is not the case, and the test was unnecessary anyway as he showed himself before he left.

IC: Reptis turns to Deslocke. "Well, what do the shapeshifters want of us now?"

Trevor wrote:OOC: Reptis could not understand what they were discussing, he just asked randomly as a test.

OOC: No problem. I was working on my reply when you posted, so I didn't see it yet. If I had, I'd likely have had him shape-shift AS he answered you with his "of course". :-)
{In fact, why don't we say that's what he did... You're in character play removed any doubt whom you're dealing with (unless someone terribly objects to slightly altering the 'in-game banter')}

Wait a second, as soon as Deslocke has a high level of certainty that he's talking to an un-natural shapeshifter, the situation "changes" (pun intended). I'm not letting him escape. Having Venom as a prisoner is good; having Venom and one of the Dopplegangers would be even better. He is evil and clearly threatening the surrounding people (elves, dwarves, sneaky (but good) halfling, and token Dragonborn) with harm. We have the dragon and there's no way we're letting the dragon back into their hands, items or not.
Suddenly, I'll hit him with Cascade of Light [+6 vs Will 3d8+4 and miss = 1/2 damage] (likely doing about 20 points of damage, yes, I'll use elven reroll if I miss) and assuming I surprised him, I'll scream as a free action "Minrath spy! Do not let him get away! Reptis, cut him off!" Note, if he's surprised by my sudden attack, I have combat advantage and I'm +2 to hit.
I'm sure we'll have to roll initiative now, if I win,
(don't forget, I'm +2 initiative for a total of +7 as Reptis is near me)

use Action Point - Hit him with Daunting Light + 6 (+8 if he hasn't acted yet) vs Ref. hit 2d10+4 (+5 more if my Cascade of Light also hit) and use elven accuracy if it is still available and I miss and grant Reptis Combat Advantage against the foul creature until the end of my next turn.
Free Action - as I used an action point, all further attacks by me are +1 to hit and all my defenses are +1 until the end of my next turn.
Minor Action - He is my Quarry (all my attacks inflict +1d6 damage)
Move Action - Change to Minor action - Pull out Dagger of Poison
(assuming I'm 2 to 7 squares away, I wouldn't let him get any farther)
Free Action - Divine Fortune (+1 to hit on all attacks until my next turn)
Standard Action - Throw Dagger [+12 to hit (+14 if combat advantage) includes Divine Fortune, if I miss, use elven accuracy if I have not used it already] [if hit, use Free daily item power, target is weakened and takes 5 on going poison damage and takes 1d4 (base dam) + 2 (item) + 1d6 (quarry) + 5 poison + 5 more if my Cascade of Light also hit]
Free Action - Dagger returns to my hand
Free Action - Yell "He's a shape shifter, get Master Flame! Surrender or die agent of Minrath! You will NOT get away!"
Note, I'm yelling that he's an agent of Minrath as that will get the most immediate reaction from the Corona guardsmen. In the worst case (for him) he's now taken about 60 or more points of damage and he's poisoned and weakened. It's your move...it's okay if we have to play this out.

talked to Brad on the phone, as Deslocke clearly in his original post adhered to the forum rules and indicated his location was the courtyard of Corona Keep with all the PC's within earshot, this is the setting as the Elf (of Tiamat - errrr shape shifter) speaks to Deslocke. As a little time past since Deslocke's original sentence and Deslocke's final sentence just before the Elf approaches Deslocke, some of the other PC's may have wandered off as none of them replied to Deslocke's comments. The exception would be Reptis who (by his posts) is clearly right nearby.

I would assume that there would be a good number of armed Corona guards, captains, and possibly special characters (Lord Corona, Flame, Maylene, Gayla, etc. etc.) that just happen to be nearby. They would likely attack to subdue (or even kill) anyone identified as an agent of Minrath! Hmmm... how many archers would normally be on duty along the walls of the courtyard? Further, since Reptis is a Dragon Lancer and elite guard of the keep and most likely in uniform, since Deslocke is calling on Reptis by name for aid, any other Corona forces would naturally support us (Deslocke and Reptis).

We should definately have some of these details of where everything/everyone is hashed out..."Determine surprise." The DM determines whether any combatants are surprised. If any combatants notice enemy combatants without being noticed in return, the aware combatants gain a surprise round." page 266 PHB.
Since they were conversing for sometime, obviously neither side noticed the other without being noticed in return, so Deslocke does not have surprise.
Doppelganger's init: +14 Once we figure how to set everything up, we'll see who acts in what order.
OOC: Since I wasn't really expecting an attack (so soon), I don't have him totally made out, so we'll have to wait to play this out. Terrain details need to be fleshed out too anyway if there's going to be a battle. We can see who wins initiative this weekend as I'm sure I'll have him finished by then... Needless to say, getting treasure for the Dragon is likely off the table now! (From me anyway, I haven't made any other NPCs that would want, and be in a position to buy, a young evil Dragon... Ross? It may be up to you to get paid for capturing a Dragon...)

[quote="bradly"]We should definately have some of these details of where everything/everyone is hashed out...
"Determine surprise." The DM determines whether any combatants are surprised. If any combatants notice enemy combatants without being noticed in return, the aware combatants gain a surprise round." page 266 PHB.

Since they were conversing for sometime, obviously neither side noticed the other without being noticed in return, so Deslocke does not have surprise.

Doppelganger's init: +14 Once we figure how to set everything up, we'll see who acts in what order.

OOC: Since I wasn't really expecting an attack (so soon), I don't have him totally made out, so we'll have to wait to play this out. Terrain details need to be fleshed out too anyway if there's going to be a battle. We can see who wins initiative this weekend as I'm sure I'll have him finished by then... Needless to say, getting treasure for the Dragon is likely off the table now! (From me anyway, I haven't made any other NPCs that would want, and be in a position to buy, a young evil Dragon... Ross? It may be up to you to get paid for capturing a Dragon...)

OOC: Hehe, well that got interesting real quick. I didn't think the doppleganger would admit to being one (I seem to recall you saying they have "screaming high" bluff). I asked my test question in the hope that someone with good insight would pick up on it.

Also Brad, I doubt we would really want to sell the dragon back to the people that we're already at odds with anyway. Seems like giving their dragon back to them would come back to bite us later (or breathe acid on us).

And as far as combat goes, Reptis would definitely go on the offense when the doppleganger revealed himself too. He's still a bit sore about the whole birth shell fragment theft. Hence the suspicion and question earlier.

If there is no surprise, since Deslocke initiated the battle, I still get "first strike", right? So it is a regular and not a surprise round? If I maintain "first strike" e.g. Deslocke is assumed to act in the number one slot regardless of initiative, then I assume I can use my Action Point in the first round since it is not a surprise round...
He was walking away when I hit him, it would be kind of strange for the doppleganger to suddenly know I was going to attack especially when you have confirmed that you weren't expecting an attack at all. If the doppleganger is even allowed an opportunity to suddenly evade Deslocke's attack before Deslocke even launches the attack, at a minimum I feel it is reasonable that Deslocke gets a hefty positive modifier to initiative. Discuss...

Hmmm...if we're just talking, is Deslocke a combatant? Yeah, I know I might be reaching here...

Wow, this is going to be interesting.
Humm, good rangers can use poison daggers?

...in 4.0 they can...at least I don't see a reason why a good Cleric/ Ranger wouldn't use something that occurs natually in nature against a foul evil shapeshifter...

"The DM determines whether any combatants are surprised. If any combatants notice enemy combatants without being noticed in return, the aware combatants gain a surprise round." page 266 PHB." Since they were conversing for sometime, obviously neither side noticed the other without being noticed in return, so Deslocke does not have surprise.

However, pg 267, the next page of the DMG says,

Some battles begin with a surprise round. A surprise round occurs if any combatants are unaware of enemy combatants' presence OR hostile intentions... if supposed allies spring an attack and you failed your Insight check to notice the attackers' traitorous intentions, you're surprised.

(note, my Caps) I will conceed that Deslocke is not a "supposed ally" of the doppleganger, but I put forth that the intent of this phrase is that creatures that are in a non-combat situation that suddenly develops into a combat situation can achieve surprise while in the open. In other words, you are aware of thier presence but you were NOT aware of their hostile intentions. This would be akin to being in a market place full of people. You can see all the people, but you are not aware of the hostile intentions of the three assasins converging upon you within the shoppers. Thus, I take the position that it is possible that Deslocke can Surprise the Dopplegagger.

I'm not sure where the other party members would be. Deslocke did state that he was going to handle the dragon negotiations.

Espirit will be in the keep somewhere, but it could be minutes before he's at the scene of the battle.

I believe that Deslocke could have suprised him, but a passive insight check would be needed vs a modified Bluff check.

I'm not sure where the other party members would be. Deslocke did state that he was going to handle the dragon negotiations.

some of the other PC's may have wandered off as none of them replied to Deslocke's comments. The exception would be Reptis who (by his posts) is clearly right nearby.

I would agree, the other party member may not be the. Only Reptis is there for sure.

I don't know if he would be surprised about an attack. He's going into the courtyard of an enemy keep. He would be on high alert unless he was like 20th level and didn't feel threatened.

Some people are just that sure of themselves, especially a doppleganger who can turn into anyone at any time.

Mick wrote:
I don't know if he would be surprised about an attack. He's going into the courtyard of an enemy keep. He would be on high alert unless he was like 20th level and didn't feel threatened.

Yes, 'Bradly' was surprised by the attack, but the Doppelganger would definately be on high alert. (& he's not THAT high...)

Teramotos wrote:If there is no surprise, since Deslocke initiated the battle, I still get "first strike", right?

But wouldn't this mean that absolutely every encounter would start with someone getting a 'free' first strike? It's not like there's ever a referee yelling "ready, set, go!"

Trevor wrote:OOC: Hehe, well that got interesting real quick. I didn't think the doppleganger would admit to being one (I seem to recall you saying they have "screaming high" bluff)

To the first part, concur! :-)
To the 2nd, +14 skill, +20 change shape, and I gave him a +4 situation bonus, since he had time to really sell the role. He 'admitted' it, since even if he didn't, it'd be a pretty obvious suspicion (to the PCs anyway, not really the NPCs)

Mick wrote:Wow, this is going to be interesting.
Humm, good rangers can use poison daggers?

This may just be me, but poison dagger seems only questionably more 'evil' than trying to stab someone regularly. I'd say it's okay, but something to definately watch... poisoning someone's food on the other hand!...

Dwarmaj wrote:I believe that Deslocke could have suprised him, but a passive insight check would be needed vs a modified Bluff check.

If a check is allowed, would it be a passive insight, or active? It reads like active to me... Anyway, he's +13 to insight so passive would be 23

Teramotos wrote:Some battles begin with a surprise round. A surprise round occurs if any combatants are unaware of enemy combatants' presence OR hostile intentions... if supposed allies spring an attack and you failed your Insight check to notice the attackers' traitorous intentions, you're surprised.

Seems like if you agreed to barter, or made any gesture to ally, a roll to check for surprise is justified. In this case, he tried to barter with a known enemy, and you attacked him. I don't see where you made any attempt to get him to drop his gaurd... I'm open to discuss the possibility of an opposed check for surprise, but I'm inclined to just say initiative rolls.
More importantly, what do we think is a fair way to determine who's there? (Much more concerned about PCs than NPCs) Since she's my PC and I'm DM-ing the NPC, lets just say that Gabby is NOT around. Deslocke & Reptis may need some help... he's not a solo monster, but I did intend him & his allies to challenge the party 3 adventures from now when we're 6th!...

Teramotos wrote:I will conceed that Deslocke is not a "supposed ally" of the doppleganger, but I put forth that the intent of this phrase is that creatures that are in a non-combat situation that suddenly develops into a combat situation can achieve surprise while in the open. In other words, you are aware of thier presence but you were NOT aware of their hostile intentions.

Well, you captured his kinsman, captured his obvious Draconic ally that he wants to set free, killed some of his younger kinsman... I'm not seeing how he would possibly be "NOT aware" of your hostile intentions. He came to barter for the release of his ally from known enemies.
He may have thought you'd be more honorable in negotiations though!... :-)
(But that doesn't mean he ever trusted you or was unaware of your intent.)

I don't even know what the layout of the keep is but off hand, but I think it's pretty far, with the area your at being right in the center of everything. It's probably fair to just say there is a 33.3% chance a PC is close by (each PC besides Stu and Trevor roll a d6, 1 or 2 means your nearby. Then roll 2d20 to see how many spaces they are away.

Here is Zazoo's roll.

1st roll is if I'm there, 2nd roll is how far if I get a 1 or 2 on the first roll.

The member 'Ross' has done the following action : Dices roll

'd6' : 2

2d20 roll to see how far away I am.

The member 'Ross' has done the following action : Dices roll

'd20' : 3, 5

Don't really like the built in forum dice roller so I'm testing this:
Not my official roll, just testing. My official rolls are above for now.

1d6, 2d20=[1], [17, 18]

I used http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/ to create this. Seems like a good dice roller app.

Let's just say that I am not there as well since there is no reason to suspect that I am around. I am probably still at the keep of Lord Corona but in prayers or something.

Oh wait, I believe, all of us are present except for Chris and Mick's PC's.

Teramotos wrote:Deslocke, standing in the courtyard of Corona Keep, in the presence of; Espirit, Sean, Reptis, Zazoo and Gabby too, says; "Well, we've captured this dragon, who's going to pay for its food? Are we paying Lord Corona to guard it? Should we try to sell it to some ultra powerful adventurer that lives in Dray? I'm sure that someone out there can train this dragon to be a cool mount. What do you all think?" Deslocke says all of this out of earshot of Venom..

I thought that was when Deslocke agreed to be the front person for selling the dragon. I think Deslockes interaction with the doppleganger is a separate conversation.

I don't think so. I don't see any location or time change in any postings.

I would agree with Ken.

I'll be willing to act as negotiator on the group's behalf.

I would think the group would leave and go about their business.

An 'Elf' looking remarkably similar to that of Deslocke's clan, except wearing an insignia of a star with 5 wavy points on his chest, approaches Deslocke.

Who knows how long after they agree to mak Deslock the front man before the dopperganger shows up. Minutes or hours.

Reading through the posts we were still having a conversation about selling the dragon when Deslocke is approached. As a matter of fact Deslocke hasn't even taken any actions to locate a buyer yet.

Dwarmaj wrote:I thought that was when Deslocke agreed to be the front person for selling the dragon. I think Deslockes interaction with the doppleganger is a separate conversation.

Mick wrote:
Who knows how long after they agree to make Deslocke the front man before the dopperganger shows up. Minutes or hours.

That was my intention. Hence, looking just like Deslocke's clan, speaking in Elvish, but...

Ross wrote:I don't think so. I don't see any location or time change in any postings.

Yup. That was my bad. :-(
Fair to say the location would be the same, and 'some' time would have passed. However, Deslocke wouldn't have been that "brave" if he were obviously alone with just Reptis either. Maybe he would, thinking them & the guards are enough... (Hopefully, it was clear that the Doppelganger was not introduced as a sped.) I would think a reasonable chance that the named PCs have moved on, as well as a reasonable chance that unnamed PCs living there might be near. I think it fair to say that at least another PC is near them, considering Deslocke's actions.

Also, I cannot immediately accept your kind offer as is, you must understand I need to confer with my fellows who all have an interest in the matter.

Why would he make this statement to stall for time if the group was still standing there?

Mick wrote:

Also, I cannot immediately accept your kind offer as is, you must understand I need to confer with my fellows who all have an interest in the matter.

Why would he make this statement to stall for time if the group was still standing there?

While I do admit botching an addition of "some time later when Deslocke is not surrounded" or the like, I must also admit this is pretty compelling that the mutual understanding of all is that everyone wasn't present. :-)

That could easily mean that we want to discuss it before accepting an offer. Happens in business negotiation meetings all the time. Basically your saying our group wants to talk in private.

That could easily mean that we want to discuss it before accepting an offer. Happens in business negotiation meetings all the time. Basically your saying our group wants to talk in private.

It could but the PCs aren't businessmen. Since Zazoo being a halfing with a short span of attention would be off looking for more interesting things to do once Deslocke volunteer to do the work for the group. Espirit would go off to study spells or craft some items. Gabby would be off to save the world or help some grandma across a road. And Reptis well, I guess he's with Deslocke.

Uh, don't have to be businessmen to have a private consultation about decisions. Happens all the time in things like family meetings, club meetings, groups on vacations, basically anytime a decision will take place with a 3rd party that you don't want to hear your bickering.

I don't mean to say the PCs wouldn't have meeting like that. My point is, the PCs wouldn't be standing around waiting after Deslocke takes the responsiblity for the sale. Since no time line was given, there no way to tell who was there and who wasn't.
Looks like the forum rules weren't completely followed.
When players are posting to this forum they must indicate the following things:
1. PC Name who is taking actions
2. Location of PC during their actions
3. Other PC's present during their actions
4. Any other information that might be pertinent to your actions (i.e. are you disguised, have certain items with you, etc)

Okay, I (Stuart) assert that I did follow the forum rules in my initial post. I stated which of my characters was speaking, who else was present and where I was.
In my second post, the one JUST BEFORE the elf speaks, I noted...

Deslocke, still with everyone around,
"I say we sell it and split the proceeds five ways then. If the group allows it, I'll be willing to act as negotiator on the group's behalf. I have some experience negotiating for my church."

So, I am still standing in the courtyard. The poster for the elf (Brad) did not indicate in anyway that there was a change in venue. There is also no mention at all that any of the PC's named in my original post have left. Now, regarding Deslocke's statement:

Also, I cannot immediately accept your kind offer as is, you must understand I need to confer with my fellows who all have an interest in the matter.

...even if ALL THE OTHER PC's were 20' away, none of them have said anything AND as a representative, wouldn't you want to discuss the matter in private? How many of you have negotiated for a new car with your wife present (right next to you) and told the salesman "Can you excuse us for a moment so we can discuss your offer?". I mean, you've (the husband) have been speaking to the salesman for an hour now and you know you can't commit to the deal cause your significant other isn't saying anything. If the other PC's had all posted that they wanted to accept the elf's offer, then Deslocke would have to use other negotiating tactics. I'm taking the postion that Deslocke's statement above is not nearly as indicative as some indicate regarding the physical presence, or not, of the other PC's. I'd use an example from work, but I know that I'd get too wordy, just suffice it to say that in negotiations, deferring for internal approval is a common tactic to have the other side reveal thier next position.


Hmmm...even though it may have been your "intent" to have the elf conversation a long time (hours or days) later and in a different location, Deslocke was still waiting for an answer from the other PC's regarding his offer to be the negotiator.

Deslocke, still with everyone around,
"I say we sell it and split the proceeds five ways then. If the group allows it, I'll be willing to act as negotiator on the group's behalf. I have some experience negotiating for my church."

the key words being "If the group allows it...". which Mickey left out when he quoted me and I mildly admonish Mickey for citing the abbreviated quote.
I take exception to Ken's post,

I thought that was when Deslocke agreed to be the front person for selling the dragon. I think Deslockes interaction with the doppleganger is a separate conversation.

.

Again, Deslocke made an offer to be the front person. I do not see any posts by the party asking Deslocke to be the front person. There would have to be someone asking Deslocke to be the front person for Deslocke to accept the offer. There was no offer, therefore, Deslocke cannot have agreed; clearly it is the reverse, Deslocke has made an offer to the party and he is waiting for the party's acceptance. I don't see any posts by any PC's that agree or confirm that Deslocke may speak on the group's behalf. In fact, with ownership of the dragon being split five ways, there would at least have to be consensus if not everyone in agreement. Therefore, I refute and strongly disagree with any claims that any time at all has past since Deslocke made his offer to act as the group's negotiator as the offer was never accepted.

Regarding the statement:

Fair to say the location would be the same, and 'some' time would have passed. However, Deslocke wouldn't have been that "brave" if he were obviously alone with just Reptis either. Maybe he would, thinking them & the guards are enough...

Deslocke is not Weslocke. Deslocke is good. Deslocke knows that he is facing a doppleganger, of that he is 100% sure as he shapechanged in front of me. It is Deslocke's understanding (correct or not based on a phone call with Brad) that the doppleganger has threatened harm to the good people living nearby. The doppleganger is clearly associated with the ones the party just got through defeating. Deslocke is inside a keep, surrounded by scores of good aligned cavalry troops. There are also at least a couple dozen extra ordinary characters that live here, I mean, really this is the local seat of power for the entire local area for miles around. If the DM rules that all of the PC's (none have indicated in any way that they've left) are or are not present, Deslocke would attack regardless. I mean, how many arrows are going to be shot at this guy next round? There's even a known, very distinct, elite guard (Reptis) of the keep attacking the guy. How many Corona guardsmen wouldn't help their fellows?

I'll list all of Lord Corona's forces in a separate post.
Ross, yes, I do have a sketch (on old yellowing paper) of the keep. I'll have to dig it up. Not 100% sure I can find it, but I had it at sometime. I think the last time I saw it was when Lancer was still in AD&D (original) format.