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Flanking Conjurations

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1 Flanking Conjurations on Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:34 pm

Ross

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I think conjurations do get flanking bonuses, but don't think they can give flanking bonuses. See the underlined sections below. However, I can also see how they shouldn't get flanking bonuses.

------------------------------
Conjuration
An effect type. A conjuration power produces a conjuration, which is a creation of magical energy that resembles a creature, an object, or some other phenomenon. Even if a conjuration looks like a creature or displays some degree of sentience, it is not considered a creature. Unless otherwise noted, a conjuration uses the following rules.

Occupies No Squares: The conjuration occupies no squares. The conjuration does not need to be supported by a solid surface, so it can float in the air.

Unaffected by the Environment: Terrain and environmental phenomena have no effect on the conjuration. For instance, a conjuration that is an icy hand functions in an inferno without penalty.

Creator’s Defenses: Normally, a conjuration cannot be attacked or physically affected. If a conjuration can be attacked or physically affected, it uses its creator’s defenses. Unless an attack specifically targets conjurations, only the attack’s damage (not including ongoing damage) affects the conjuration. For instance, an attack power that would cause a creature to take 20 cold damage and become immobilized would instead deal only the cold damage to a conjuration.

Attacking with a Conjuration: Normally, a conjuration cannot attack. If a conjuration can attack, its creator makes the attack, determining line of effect from the conjuration as if the creator were in the conjuration’s space. If line of sight is relevant, determine it from the creator, not the conjuration.

Movable Conjurations: If the power used to create a conjuration allows it to be moved, it’s a movable conjuration. At the end of the creator’s turn, a movable conjuration ends if the creator doesn’t have line of effect to at least 1 square of the conjuration or if the creator isn’t within range (using the power’s range) of at least 1 square of the conjuration.
A conjuration can’t be moved through blocking terrain.

Death Ends: A conjuration ends immediately if its creator dies.
------------------------------------
Flanking
Combat Advantage: You have combat advantage against an enemy you flank.

Opposite Sides: To flank an enemy, you and an ally must be adjacent to the enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space. When in doubt about whether two characters flank an enemy, trace an imaginary line between the centers of the characters’ squares. If the line passes through opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space, the enemy is flanked.

Must Be Able to Attack: You and your ally must be able to attack the enemy, whether you’re armed or unarmed. If there’s no line of effect between your enemy and either you or your ally, you don’t flank. If you’re affected by an effect that prevents you from taking actions, you don’t flank.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

2 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:49 pm

I think it's a pretty gray area...

It says that you can determine LoE as if you're in the conjurations space, but you're not actually in that space.

Flanking says the you and an ally must be adjacent on opposite sides of an enemy.


My vote would be No since you're not actually adjacent. You determine LOE as if you were there, but you're not.

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3 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:13 pm

If the Conjuration is of the sort that is able to attack, then I disagree. I would let Conjurations both give and receive flanking bonuses. There must be something on the Wizard's board...

If the Conjuration can attack, then the enemy still has to pay attention to it just like any other enemy. Now, if the Conjuration cannot make any sort of opportunity attacks but can only make "standard" attacks on its turn, should that matter?

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4 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:31 pm

Ross

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I know my spirit conjuration can only make an opportunity attack if the opponent moves, so it's not a threat while the enemy is just standing there. Thats why I'm saying I think the conjuration should get a flanking bonus, but it wouldn't provide a flanking bonus.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

5 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:46 pm

Teramotos wrote:If the Conjuration is of the sort that is able to attack, then I disagree. I would let Conjurations both give and receive flanking bonuses. There must be something on the Wizard's board...

If the Conjuration can attack, then the enemy still has to pay attention to it just like any other enemy. Now, if the Conjuration cannot make any sort of opportunity attacks but can only make "standard" attacks on its turn, should that matter?

But then you're saying that the shaman (or other character that can create a conjuation) can flank a creature solo. The shaman on one side and the conjuration on the other. That would be permanent combat advantage.


Hmm, a hybrid rogue/shaman that always has combat advantage vs an adjacent foe...

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6 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:10 pm

I can see this both ways...

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7 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:53 pm

...well "permanent"...doesn't the shaman have to spend (minor) actions to resummon or move the conjuration? Those could be action he could be using to heal others, get out items or move himself, right? If the shaman is dazed, he can't resummon a lost conjuration and still attack, right? If the shaman only uses the conjuration for flanking for himself, then he isn't using the conjuration to stop opponent movements around other parts of the battlefield (which has been VERY powerful IMHO) or provide flanking bonuses to other party member who might be able to make even better use of the bonus.

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8 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:20 pm

Here's a thread on the WotC forum stating that conjurations are not allies and therefore can not flank:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19675530/Conjurations_and_Flank



There is also a Shaman At-Will power that lets their conjuration flank:
Stalker's Strike
As your spirit companion claws at your foe, the spirit is filled with predatory fury, becoming a greater threat to your enemies.
At-Will Implement, Primal, Spirit
Standard Action Melee spirit 1
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Fortitude. If the target is bloodied, you gain a bonus to the attack roll equal to one-half your Intelligence modifier.
Hit: 1d10 + Wisdom modifier damage. Until the end of your next turn, your spirit companion can flank with you and your allies.
Level 21: 2d10 + Wisdom modifier damage.

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9 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:53 pm

Okay, in light of the Power, it is evident that companions don't normally provide flanking.

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10 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:03 pm

Teramotos wrote:Okay, in light of the Power, it is evident that companions don't normally provide flanking.

That's only half of the debate though...

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11 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:11 am

bradly wrote:That's only half of the debate though...

Not sure what you mean by other half...

A conjuration is not an ally and does not provide flanking and cannot flank unless a power specificly say it can.

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12 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:00 am

Dwarmaj wrote:
bradly wrote:That's only half of the debate though...

Not sure what you mean by other half...

A conjuration is not an ally and does not provide flanking and cannot flank unless a power specificly say it can.

One half of the discussion is whether or not the Spirit provides flanking, the other is if it can recieve flanking. I think there's consensus it doesn't provide flanking, but recieve?

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13 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:35 am

Ross

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RAW seems to indicate it does receive flanking.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

14 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:55 am

Ross wrote:RAW seems to indicate it does receive flanking.

Where?

The conjuration is not an ally and does not have allies.

It determines LOE as if the caster were in that square, but nothing else.

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15 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:13 am

Ross

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Admin
Any attack made through the spirit is made as by the shaman. Thus allies of the shaman are still allies. The highlighted parts above are the parts supporting things.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

16 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:27 am

Ross wrote:Any attack made through the spirit is made as by the shaman. Thus allies of the shaman are still allies. The highlighted parts above are the parts supporting things.


The Spirit Companion attacks are made using the attack bonus of the Shaman and LOE is determined as if the Shaman were in the Spirit Companion square, but the Shaman is not in that square.

The underlined parts above were:

1. If a conjuration can attack, its creator makes the attack, determining line of effect from the conjuration as if the creator were in the conjuration’s space.

2. ...you and an ally must be adjacent to the enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space.


Neither allow a Spirit Companion or other conjuration to gain flanking.

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17 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:08 pm

Here's the reply from WotC support:

Subject
Can a Flaming Sphere or Shaman Spirit Companion receive or provide flanking?



Discussion Thread
Response Via Email (Support Agent) 04/30/2011 11:50 AM
Hello Ken!

Thanks for writing in, and thanks for the question!

Neither of those conjurations can attack. This is because the rules for flanking state that both parties must be able to attack. A Spirit Companion does not have any attacks of its own. The Flaming Sphere also has no attacks, it just has a constant effect.

If you have any other questions, please let us know!

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18 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:52 pm

Well, that kinda settles that. Conjured creatuers cannot normally flank or provide flanking.

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19 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:19 pm

Ross

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Admin
Neither of those conjurations can attack. This is because the rules for flanking state that both parties must be able to attack. A Spirit Companion does not have any attacks of its own. The Flaming Sphere also has no attacks, it just has a constant effect.

Okay, that make sense.
So does that mean there are some conjurations that have their own attack?


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

20 Re: Flanking Conjurations on Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:28 pm

Not that I know of, but Wizards can summon creatures and may of them meet the prerequisites.

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