Bonuses on Secondary rolls...

Which bonus should be added to damage rolls for secondary effects?

I'm working on Ember's token and want to make sure I'm adding the bonuses correctly.

Ember's damage bonuses look like:
+6 Int
+6 on cold, fire, lightning, acid, or thunder
+1 off hand implement
+2 main hand implement
+1 shard
+2 item bonus from staff

Example:
For Flaming Sphere
Hit: 2d6+Int modifier fire damage
(turns into 2d6+18 with other bonuses)

If any creature starts their turn adjacent to the sphere they take 1d4+Int Mod fire damage.

Do the other bonuses also apply to the secondary damage rolls? Should the secondary roll be

1d4+6?
1d4+8? (with main enhancement bonus)
1d4+18? (with all bonuses)

The PHB FAQ item #5 shows that the enhancement bonus should be added. What about other bonuses?

Thoughts?

I created a thread on the WotC forum and it looks like all damage bonuses are added.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27061109/Has_there_been_any_clarification_on_bonuses_to_secondary_damage_rolls


I'll go with that unless there is a DM objection...

Yeah, if it were a melee weapon with a main affect and a secondary affect, e.g. stike first enemy and take 1W+Str Mod damage and all other enemies within 1 square take 1d4+Str Mod damage, I see no reason why a bonus that would add to the damage against the initial target wouldn't add to the secondary targets.

Teramotos wrote:Yeah, if it were a melee weapon with a main affect and a secondary affect, e.g. stike first enemy and take 1W+Str Mod damage and all other enemies within 1 square take 1d4+Str Mod damage, I see no reason why a bonus that would add to the damage against the initial target wouldn't add to the secondary targets.

It's a little different than a melee attack...

Melee attacks can't be sustained as a minor action to deal automatic damage. It also means that someone Ember hits will take 2d6+18+1d4+18, on a miss they'll take 1d4+18.


I agree that RAW all bonuses should be added, but the current ruling hasn't been in place for very long.

Original Customer Service ruling was that bonus only applied to the initial attack. That's how I played it when I had a wizard and with my sorcerer.

...so are you saying it's kinda like using the sneak attack or hunter's quarry damage only once a round?

My thoughts are:

Flaming Sphere
Arcane, Conjuration, Fire, Implement
Hit: 2d6 + Intelligence modifier (+6) fire damage
Ember's damage bonuses look like:
+6 Int
+6 on fire
+1 off hand implement
+2 main hand implement
+1 shard
+2 item bonus from staff

secondary damage
1d4 + Intelligence modifier (+6) fire damage
+6 Int applies
+2 main hand implement,+1 shard & +2 item bonus from staff are from the same implement
+1 off hand implement, the feat ties the use of he off implement to the main implement.
+6 on fire, which the secondary damage has

It's a daily power, it should be powerful.

A power like:
Fire Shield
Keywords Arcane, Fire
DAILY
Effect: You gain resist 10 cold and resist 10 fire
until the end of the encounter. Whenever a
creature makes a melee attack roll against you, it
takes 2d6 + your Intelligence modifier (+6) fire
damage. No creature can take this damage more
than once per turn.

This power should have
2d6 + your Intelligence modifier (+6) fire
+6 Int applies
+6 on fire, which the damage has
no implement bonus since it's not listed in the keywords

I was just trying to figure out how the bonuses should be applied.

For the last 3-4 years it has been played that bonuses did not get applied to secondary damage rolls. This is because WotC customer service had ruled that way.

Flaming Sphere and other attacks used by Espirit, Freeza, and Miri were handled that way. Ember at level 1 also did not apply bonuses to secondary damage rolls.

I saw a post on a WotC forum that got me to raise the question so I posted here and on the WotC rules forum.

So RAW now supports adding all bonuses that apply to secondary damage rolls.

I suppose it will be up to Brad.

Mick wrote:I suppose it will be up to Brad.

Bah! I don't care what the ruling is if it's what the rest of you think is fair/right. I care much more about campaign flavor stuff...

Okay, you'll have to help me out, I know you've already looked at this.
The off hand and main hand implement bonuses stack? Aren't they both "implement" bonuses? Also, implements aren't magic "items" correct? In other words, implements aren't contributing an "item" bonus that wouldn't stack with the staff,right? Now, the shard isn't an "item" either, right? Hands; do you have to be holding all these things for them to work? I don't play casters much, but how are you holding two implements, a staff, and the shard all at the same time?

If Brad's going to punt the decision, I'll be more than happy to give my opinion.

The staff is also considered an implement, but it shouldn't both stack as an implement and a staff, right? You can just use it as an Implement OR a Staff, right?

Freeza and Ember have the Dual Implement Spellcaster feat.

Dual Implement Spellcaster
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Dex 13, any arcane class
Benefit: When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this power, and you must be capable of wielding both implements, to gain this benefit.

In 4E you can use a staff as an implement in one hand. So you could have a staff in each hand and cast spells. The down side is that you can't make AoO or other melee attacks since you have to use a staff in two hands to attack with. (Freeza uses staff/dagger and makes AoO with the dagger).

Oh, the Shard is a Dragon Shard. The can be attached to a weapon and provide a bonuse to damage when you hit with the weapon or weapon/implement. To bad they can't be attached to non-weapon implements. I'd like one for my Ki Focus...

Shard of the Mage +1/+3/+5 damage on all implement attacks
Shard of Cold +1/+3/+5 on all cold powers
Shard of Lightning +1/+3/+5 on all lightning powers
Shard of Radiance +1/+3/+5 on all radiant powers

So the single + 2 Staff is giving a +2 item bonus for being a Staff and a + 2 implement bonus for being an implement? I think that it can be used as a staff or an implement but not cumulative at the same instance for any given single power.

The Staff of Ruin gives an enhancement bonus to damaage and an item bonus to damage...

Freeza uses this item as well, though mine is an Accurate Staff of Ruin +4 so I get +5 to hit and +8 damage (one of the reasons Freeza does 1d4+34 with an at-will...).

Staff of Ruin
Level 3 Uncommon

This gnarled, jagged staff fits the hand of any wizard seeking to devastate her opponent.

Price: 680 gp
Implement (Staff)
Enhancement: +1 attack rolls and damage rolls
Critical: +1d10 damage
Property: Whenever you make an attack using this staff, you gain an item bonus to the attack’s damage rolls equal to the staff’s enhancement bonus.

Dwarmaj wrote:(one of the reasons Freeza does 1d4+34 with an at-will...).

BOOM!!!

Nice. Might have to look into that for Shedar.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27061109/Has_there_been_any_clarification_on_bonuses_to_secondary_damage_rolls

There is also a reference in the Rules Compendium, page 222. So it's official that you can use bonuses on Secondary Rolls.

Okay then...RAW, bonuses apply to secondary rolls.