Northwest Gamers

Welcome to the Northwest Gamers Forums. Please Login or Register.

Join the forum, it's quick and easy

Northwest Gamers

Welcome to the Northwest Gamers Forums. Please Login or Register.

Northwest Gamers

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Northwest Gamers

Forum for the Northwest Gamers

Latest topics

» Adventure Logs - The Eastern Knights
The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums EmptySun Mar 24, 2024 3:51 pm by Teramotos

» Adventure Logs - RIFTS
The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 5:04 pm by Teramotos

» Savage Rifts Advancement/Rank
The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 4:52 pm by Teramotos

» Adventure Logs - Shaelrick Adventures - PF2e
The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums EmptySat Mar 09, 2024 12:57 am by Teramotos

» Game On! Friday 8 March - Pathfinder 2e Newport Hills 6 PM
The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums EmptyThu Mar 07, 2024 6:29 am by Teramotos

» Adventure Logs - Wisdom Warriors of Newport - Beginner Series 4e
The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums EmptySat Mar 02, 2024 11:22 am by Teramotos

» Westron Information
The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 12:47 pm by Teramotos

» PF2e AoO from movement
The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums EmptyTue Feb 20, 2024 5:01 pm by Ross

» PF2e Misc Rules
The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums EmptySun Feb 18, 2024 12:17 pm by Ross

March 2024

SunMonTueWedThuFriSat
     12
3456789
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930

Calendar Calendar

Who is online?

In total there are 13 users online :: 1 Registered, 0 Hidden and 12 Guests

Krystoff


[ View the whole list ]


Most users ever online was 801 on Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:27 pm


2 posters

    The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums

    Krystoff
    Krystoff


    Number of posts : 1675
    Registration date : 2008-12-02
    Age : 47

    The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums Empty The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums

    Post by Krystoff Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:59 am

    Originally posted by Tempest Stormwind
    05-15-06, 03:58 PM
    I still stand by the argument that this is a fundamental difference between old school (basic D&D: 1 race/class, AD&D: very limted multi-classing) vrs new school (I buy a book and there is a class in their and I want it gimmie gimmie). The trend I see is old school = roleplayers, new school = optimizers.

    Note to New school people: Don't listen to what you hear, you aren't a dork if you roleplay. It is ok to indulge in what D&D is all about, roleplay. If you try it and have a good DM, I guarantee you'll have a blast and won't care so much about optimizing.
    Okay, that's it.

    I'm hereby proposing a new logical fallacy. It's not a new idea, but maybe with a catchy name (like the Oberoni Fallacy) it will catch on.

    The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy
    Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa.

    Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game.

    Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse roleplayer if he optimizes, and vice versa.
    Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically roleplayed better than an optimized one, and vice versa.

    (I admit that there are some diehards on both sides -- the RP fanatics who refuse to optimize as if strong characters were the mark of the Devil and the min/max munchkins who couldn't RP their way out of a paper bag without setting it on fire -- though I see these as extreme examples. The vast majority of people are in between, and thus the generalizations hold. The key word is 'automatically')

    Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's gameplay. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Roleplaying deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else.
    A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other.

    Claiming that an optimizer cannot roleplay (or is participating in a playstyle that isn't supportive of roleplaying) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.

    How does this impact "builds"? Simple.

    In one extreme (say, Pun-Pun), they are thought experiments. Optimization tests that are not intended to see actual gameplay. Because they do not see gameplay, they do not commit the fallacy.

    In the other extreme, you get the drama queens. They could care less about the rules, and are, essentially, playing free-form RP. Because the game is not necessary to this particular character, it doesn't fall into the fallacy.

    By playing D&D, you opt in to an agreement of sorts -- the rules describe the world you live in, including yourself. To get the most out of those rules, in the same way you would get the most out of yourself, you must optimize in some respect (and don't look at me funny; you do it already, you just don't like to admit it. You don't need multiclassing or splatbooks to optimize). However, because it is a role-playing game, you also agree to play a role. This is dependent completely on you, and is independent of the rules.

    And no, this isn't dependent on edition, or even what roleplaying game you're doing. If you are playing a roleplaying game with any form of rules or regulation, this fallacy can apply. The only difference is the nature of the optimization (based on the rules of that game; Tri-Stat optimizes differently than d20) or the flavor of the roleplay (based on the setting; Exalted feels different from Cthulu).

    Conclusion: D&D, like it or not, has elements of both optimization AND roleplay in it. Any game that involves rules has optimization, and any role-playing game has roleplay. These are inherent to the game.

    They go hand-in-hand in this sort of game. Deal with it. And in the name of all that is good and holy, stop committing the Stormwind Fallacy in the meantime.

    avatar
    Kenji


    Number of posts : 3459
    Registration date : 2008-12-02

    The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums Empty Re: The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums

    Post by Kenji Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:55 pm

    Agree, optimizing and roleplaying are not at all mutually exclusive. Though, I'm not sure who thought they were...
    Krystoff
    Krystoff


    Number of posts : 1675
    Registration date : 2008-12-02
    Age : 47

    The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums Empty Re: The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums

    Post by Krystoff Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:15 pm

    Because it is the Char Op forums there are some people that throw that around. Basically the thought is if you are optimizing then you can't be a good roleplayer and since the character optimization board is all about optimization then the community is a bunch of horrid role players. Totally not true but I thought I would share the link.

    avatar
    Kenji


    Number of posts : 3459
    Registration date : 2008-12-02

    The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums Empty Re: The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums

    Post by Kenji Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:57 pm

    Ah. I hardly ever read those (unless you or Ken post some link...)

    Sponsored content


    The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums Empty Re: The Stormwind Fallacy - Copied from CharOp forums

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:11 pm