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So, I have this Young Green Dragon...

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26 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:38 am

I'm not sure where the other party members would be. Deslocke did state that he was going to handle the dragon negotiations.

Espirit will be in the keep somewhere, but it could be minutes before he's at the scene of the battle.

I believe that Deslocke could have suprised him, but a passive insight check would be needed vs a modified Bluff check.

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27 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:31 am

I'm not sure where the other party members would be. Deslocke did state that he was going to handle the dragon negotiations.
some of the other PC's may have wandered off as none of them replied to Deslocke's comments. The exception would be Reptis who (by his posts) is clearly right nearby.
I would agree, the other party member may not be the. Only Reptis is there for sure.

I don't know if he would be surprised about an attack. He's going into the courtyard of an enemy keep. He would be on high alert unless he was like 20th level and didn't feel threatened.

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28 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:38 am

Some people are just that sure of themselves, especially a doppleganger who can turn into anyone at any time.

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29 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:23 pm

Mick wrote:
I don't know if he would be surprised about an attack. He's going into the courtyard of an enemy keep. He would be on high alert unless he was like 20th level and didn't feel threatened.
Yes, 'Bradly' was surprised by the attack, but the Doppelganger would definately be on high alert. (& he's not THAT high...)
Teramotos wrote:If there is no surprise, since Deslocke initiated the battle, I still get "first strike", right?
But wouldn't this mean that absolutely every encounter would start with someone getting a 'free' first strike? It's not like there's ever a referee yelling "ready, set, go!"
Trevor wrote:OOC: Hehe, well that got interesting real quick. I didn't think the doppleganger would admit to being one (I seem to recall you saying they have "screaming high" bluff)
To the first part, concur! :-)
To the 2nd, +14 skill, +20 change shape, and I gave him a +4 situation bonus, since he had time to really sell the role. He 'admitted' it, since even if he didn't, it'd be a pretty obvious suspicion (to the PCs anyway, not really the NPCs)
Mick wrote:Wow, this is going to be interesting.
Humm, good rangers can use poison daggers?
This may just be me, but poison dagger seems only questionably more 'evil' than trying to stab someone regularly. I'd say it's okay, but something to definately watch... poisoning someone's food on the other hand!...
Dwarmaj wrote:I believe that Deslocke could have suprised him, but a passive insight check would be needed vs a modified Bluff check.
If a check is allowed, would it be a passive insight, or active? It reads like active to me... Anyway, he's +13 to insight so passive would be 23
Teramotos wrote:Some battles begin with a surprise round. A surprise round occurs if any combatants are unaware of enemy combatants' presence OR hostile intentions... if supposed allies spring an attack and you failed your Insight check to notice the attackers' traitorous intentions, you're surprised.

Seems like if you agreed to barter, or made any gesture to ally, a roll to check for surprise is justified. In this case, he tried to barter with a known enemy, and you attacked him. I don't see where you made any attempt to get him to drop his gaurd... I'm open to discuss the possibility of an opposed check for surprise, but I'm inclined to just say initiative rolls.
More importantly, what do we think is a fair way to determine who's there? (Much more concerned about PCs than NPCs) Since she's my PC and I'm DM-ing the NPC, lets just say that Gabby is NOT around. Deslocke & Reptis may need some help... he's not a solo monster, but I did intend him & his allies to challenge the party 3 adventures from now when we're 6th!...

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30 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:38 pm

Teramotos wrote:I will conceed that Deslocke is not a "supposed ally" of the doppleganger, but I put forth that the intent of this phrase is that creatures that are in a non-combat situation that suddenly develops into a combat situation can achieve surprise while in the open. In other words, you are aware of thier presence but you were NOT aware of their hostile intentions.
Well, you captured his kinsman, captured his obvious Draconic ally that he wants to set free, killed some of his younger kinsman... I'm not seeing how he would possibly be "NOT aware" of your hostile intentions. He came to barter for the release of his ally from known enemies.
He may have thought you'd be more honorable in negotiations though!... :-)
(But that doesn't mean he ever trusted you or was unaware of your intent.)

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31 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:38 pm

Ross

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I don't even know what the layout of the keep is but off hand, but I think it's pretty far, with the area your at being right in the center of everything. It's probably fair to just say there is a 33.3% chance a PC is close by (each PC besides Stu and Trevor roll a d6, 1 or 2 means your nearby. Then roll 2d20 to see how many spaces they are away.

Here is Zazoo's roll.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
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32 Zazoo's roll on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:41 pm

Ross

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1st roll is if I'm there, 2nd roll is how far if I get a 1 or 2 on the first roll.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

33 Zazoo's roll on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:41 pm

Ross

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The member 'Ross' has done the following action : Dices roll

'd6' : 2


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

34 2d20 on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:43 pm

Ross

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2d20 roll to see how far away I am.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

35 2d20 on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:43 pm

Ross

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The member 'Ross' has done the following action : Dices roll

'd20' : 3, 5


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

36 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:52 pm

Ross

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Don't really like the built in forum dice roller so I'm testing this:
Not my official roll, just testing. My official rolls are above for now.

1d6, 2d20=[1], [17, 18]

I used http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/ to create this. Seems like a good dice roller app.



Last edited by Ross on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:55 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : added link info for dice roller)


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

37 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:08 pm

Let's just say that I am not there as well since there is no reason to suspect that I am around. I am probably still at the keep of Lord Corona but in prayers or something.

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38 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:16 pm

Ross

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Oh wait, I believe, all of us are present except for Chris and Mick's PC's.
Teramotos wrote:Deslocke, standing in the courtyard of Corona Keep, in the presence of; Espirit, Sean, Reptis, Zazoo and Gabby too, says; "Well, we've captured this dragon, who's going to pay for its food? Are we paying Lord Corona to guard it? Should we try to sell it to some ultra powerful adventurer that lives in Dray? I'm sure that someone out there can train this dragon to be a cool mount. What do you all think?" Deslocke says all of this out of earshot of Venom..


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

39 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:39 pm

I thought that was when Deslocke agreed to be the front person for selling the dragon. I think Deslockes interaction with the doppleganger is a separate conversation.

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40 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:42 pm

Ross

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I don't think so. I don't see any location or time change in any postings.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

41 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:49 pm

I would agree with Ken.
I'll be willing to act as negotiator on the group's behalf.
I would think the group would leave and go about their business.
An 'Elf' looking remarkably similar to that of Deslocke's clan, except wearing an insignia of a star with 5 wavy points on his chest, approaches Deslocke.
Who knows how long after they agree to mak Deslock the front man before the dopperganger shows up. Minutes or hours.

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42 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:57 pm

Ross

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Reading through the posts we were still having a conversation about selling the dragon when Deslocke is approached. As a matter of fact Deslocke hasn't even taken any actions to locate a buyer yet.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

43 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:04 pm

Dwarmaj wrote:I thought that was when Deslocke agreed to be the front person for selling the dragon. I think Deslockes interaction with the doppleganger is a separate conversation.
Mick wrote:
Who knows how long after they agree to make Deslocke the front man before the dopperganger shows up. Minutes or hours.
That was my intention. Hence, looking just like Deslocke's clan, speaking in Elvish, but...
Ross wrote:I don't think so. I don't see any location or time change in any postings.
Yup. That was my bad. :-(
Fair to say the location would be the same, and 'some' time would have passed. However, Deslocke wouldn't have been that "brave" if he were obviously alone with just Reptis either. Maybe he would, thinking them & the guards are enough... (Hopefully, it was clear that the Doppelganger was not introduced as a sped.) I would think a reasonable chance that the named PCs have moved on, as well as a reasonable chance that unnamed PCs living there might be near. I think it fair to say that at least another PC is near them, considering Deslocke's actions.

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44 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:09 pm

Also, I cannot immediately accept your kind offer as is, you must understand I need to confer with my fellows who all have an interest in the matter.
Why would he make this statement to stall for time if the group was still standing there?

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45 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:18 pm

Mick wrote:
Also, I cannot immediately accept your kind offer as is, you must understand I need to confer with my fellows who all have an interest in the matter.
Why would he make this statement to stall for time if the group was still standing there?
While I do admit botching an addition of "some time later when Deslocke is not surrounded" or the like, I must also admit this is pretty compelling that the mutual understanding of all is that everyone wasn't present. :-)

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46 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:53 pm

Ross

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That could easily mean that we want to discuss it before accepting an offer. Happens in business negotiation meetings all the time. Basically your saying our group wants to talk in private.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

47 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:21 pm

That could easily mean that we want to discuss it before accepting an offer. Happens in business negotiation meetings all the time. Basically your saying our group wants to talk in private.
It could but the PCs aren't businessmen. Since Zazoo being a halfing with a short span of attention would be off looking for more interesting things to do once Deslocke volunteer to do the work for the group. Espirit would go off to study spells or craft some items. Gabby would be off to save the world or help some grandma across a road. And Reptis well, I guess he's with Deslocke.

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48 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:29 pm

Ross

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Uh, don't have to be businessmen to have a private consultation about decisions. Happens all the time in things like family meetings, club meetings, groups on vacations, basically anytime a decision will take place with a 3rd party that you don't want to hear your bickering.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

49 Re: So, I have this Young Green Dragon... on Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:48 pm

I don't mean to say the PCs wouldn't have meeting like that. My point is, the PCs wouldn't be standing around waiting after Deslocke takes the responsiblity for the sale. Since no time line was given, there no way to tell who was there and who wasn't.
Looks like the forum rules weren't completely followed.
When players are posting to this forum they must indicate the following things:
1. PC Name who is taking actions
2. Location of PC during their actions
3. Other PC's present during their actions
4. Any other information that might be pertinent to your actions (i.e. are you disguised, have certain items with you, etc)

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50 Deslocke's Postings on Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:15 pm

Okay, I (Stuart) assert that I did follow the forum rules in my initial post. I stated which of my characters was speaking, who else was present and where I was.
In my second post, the one JUST BEFORE the elf speaks, I noted...
Deslocke, still with everyone around,
"I say we sell it and split the proceeds five ways then. If the group allows it, I'll be willing to act as negotiator on the group's behalf. I have some experience negotiating for my church."
So, I am still standing in the courtyard. The poster for the elf (Brad) did not indicate in anyway that there was a change in venue. There is also no mention at all that any of the PC's named in my original post have left. Now, regarding Deslocke's statement:
Also, I cannot immediately accept your kind offer as is, you must understand I need to confer with my fellows who all have an interest in the matter.
...even if ALL THE OTHER PC's were 20' away, none of them have said anything AND as a representative, wouldn't you want to discuss the matter in private? How many of you have negotiated for a new car with your wife present (right next to you) and told the salesman "Can you excuse us for a moment so we can discuss your offer?". I mean, you've (the husband) have been speaking to the salesman for an hour now and you know you can't commit to the deal cause your significant other isn't saying anything. If the other PC's had all posted that they wanted to accept the elf's offer, then Deslocke would have to use other negotiating tactics. I'm taking the postion that Deslocke's statement above is not nearly as indicative as some indicate regarding the physical presence, or not, of the other PC's. I'd use an example from work, but I know that I'd get too wordy, just suffice it to say that in negotiations, deferring for internal approval is a common tactic to have the other side reveal thier next position.


Hmmm...even though it may have been your "intent" to have the elf conversation a long time (hours or days) later and in a different location, Deslocke was still waiting for an answer from the other PC's regarding his offer to be the negotiator.
Deslocke, still with everyone around,
"I say we sell it and split the proceeds five ways then. If the group allows it, I'll be willing to act as negotiator on the group's behalf. I have some experience negotiating for my church."
the key words being "If the group allows it...". which Mickey left out when he quoted me and I mildly admonish Mickey for citing the abbreviated quote.
I take exception to Ken's post,
I thought that was when Deslocke agreed to be the front person for selling the dragon. I think Deslockes interaction with the doppleganger is a separate conversation.
.

Again, Deslocke made an offer to be the front person. I do not see any posts by the party asking Deslocke to be the front person. There would have to be someone asking Deslocke to be the front person for Deslocke to accept the offer. There was no offer, therefore, Deslocke cannot have agreed; clearly it is the reverse, Deslocke has made an offer to the party and he is waiting for the party's acceptance. I don't see any posts by any PC's that agree or confirm that Deslocke may speak on the group's behalf. In fact, with ownership of the dragon being split five ways, there would at least have to be consensus if not everyone in agreement. Therefore, I refute and strongly disagree with any claims that any time at all has past since Deslocke made his offer to act as the group's negotiator as the offer was never accepted.

Regarding the statement:
Fair to say the location would be the same, and 'some' time would have passed. However, Deslocke wouldn't have been that "brave" if he were obviously alone with just Reptis either. Maybe he would, thinking them & the guards are enough...
Deslocke is not Weslocke. Deslocke is good. Deslocke knows that he is facing a doppleganger, of that he is 100% sure as he shapechanged in front of me. It is Deslocke's understanding (correct or not based on a phone call with Brad) that the doppleganger has threatened harm to the good people living nearby. The doppleganger is clearly associated with the ones the party just got through defeating. Deslocke is inside a keep, surrounded by scores of good aligned cavalry troops. There are also at least a couple dozen extra ordinary characters that live here, I mean, really this is the local seat of power for the entire local area for miles around. If the DM rules that all of the PC's (none have indicated in any way that they've left) are or are not present, Deslocke would attack regardless. I mean, how many arrows are going to be shot at this guy next round? There's even a known, very distinct, elite guard (Reptis) of the keep attacking the guy. How many Corona guardsmen wouldn't help their fellows?

I'll list all of Lord Corona's forces in a separate post.
Ross, yes, I do have a sketch (on old yellowing paper) of the keep. I'll have to dig it up. Not 100% sure I can find it, but I had it at sometime. I think the last time I saw it was when Lancer was still in AD&D (original) format.

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