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Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club

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1 Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:28 pm

Hidden Club

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?447238-The-Rules-of-Hidden-Club-I-Think-I-Failed-A-Spot-Check



Last edited by Dwarmaj on Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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2 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:36 pm

One thing I noticed is that you become hidden at the end of the move action.


Q: Once you are Hidden, then what?

A: Anyone who wants to attack you must guess what square you are in. Note that you became Hidden AT THE END of a Move, and you weren't Hidden until after the end of the move. Everyone knew where you were before you became Hidden, which means they knew where you were AFTER you became Hidden. If you haven't moved out of that square, they technically have to guess your location but, really, they're going to guess "where you where when they lost you". If you don't move AFTER becoming Hidden, you're not going to avoid a lot of attacks.

If you have Total Concealment (invisibility) and use a move action to use stealth and become hidden. The enemies still know what square you're in unless you move again.

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3 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:00 pm

Ross

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That's why you want powers that allow you to turn invisible and then you can use your move action to get out of the last square you were visible in. Even if you don't move you're still -5 to hit.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
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4 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:07 pm

Ross wrote:That's why you want powers that allow you to turn invisible and then you can use your move action to get out of the last square you were visible in. Even if you don't move you're still -5 to hit.

True, but classes/powers that allow for that are few...

And some players/DMs are not familiar with the rule specifics.


Q: Doesn't all this make Hidden REALLLLLY hard to get and maintain?

A: Kind of, yes - but that's intentional. Being Hidden isn't just about Combat Advantage, it's about virtual immunity to attack. As long as you're Hidden and can get away from your last known location unfollowed, you are almost completely immune to attacks and anything targeting you is almost certainly going to miss, outright, without a roll.

This is very, very powerful. And so it's hard to do. If you're just going Hidden to get Combat Advantage, it's actually a lot easier - but you don't get the immunity to attacks that way.

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5 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:45 pm

Yep agree with the insert comment above... thanks for sharing the discussion.

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Dwarmaj wrote:One thing I noticed is that you become hidden at the end of the move action.


Q: Once you are Hidden, then what?

A: Anyone who wants to attack you must guess what square you are in. Note that you became Hidden AT THE END of a Move, and you weren't Hidden until after the end of the move. Everyone knew where you were before you became Hidden, which means they knew where you were AFTER you became Hidden. If you haven't moved out of that square, they technically have to guess your location but, really, they're going to guess "where you where when they lost you". If you don't move AFTER becoming Hidden, you're not going to avoid a lot of attacks.

If you have Total Concealment (invisibility) and use a move action to use stealth and become hidden. The enemies still know what square you're in unless you move again.


Brad, this is what I meant when I mentioned that I don't think stealth is being played correctly.

When a character attacks, moves, then somehow becomes hidden. The monsters still "know" the last square they were in and can attack at -5 to hit.

A lot of the times, DMs simply ignore a PC once they state they're hidden and go after visible PCs.

I'm not sure it it would be better for them to make a roll or not. The hidden PC "could" have used a power to move again. In that case, any ranged or melee attack would auto fail.

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7 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:56 am

Yep, I agree with Ken. So, if I understand correctly, the following would apply...

Once a PC becomes hidden, even without a perception check, the monster could move and attack the PC's last known square at -5 to hit.

Once a PC becomes hidden, on the PC's next turn, if on the first square of their movement they move into plain view and then move three more squares, and then on their standard action they use a power to make a melee attack, the PC DOES NOT get combat advantage for having started their turn hidden, correct? This would be similar to a PC starting around the corner of a building alleyway, moving around the corner and then attacking a bandit who the PC did not have LOS or LOE at the start of the PC's turn.

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8 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:13 am

Ross

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Once a PC becomes hidden, even without a perception check, the monster could move and attack the PC's last known square at -5 to hit.
Yes, but the monster would still probably make a perception check, and if they make it they don't take the -5 to hit.

Once a PC becomes hidden, on the PC's next turn, if on the first square of their movement they move into plain view and then move three more squares, and then on their standard action they use a power to make a melee attack, the PC DOES NOT get combat advantage for having started their turn hidden, correct? This would be similar to a PC starting around the corner of a building alleyway, moving around the corner and then attacking a bandit who the PC did not have LOS or LOE at the start of the PC's turn.

Correct, but keep in mind that when someone does an action to lose Hidden they get to finish the action as Hidden.  So let's say someone is hidden in the forest, moves into view and does a standard action attack. They do not get advantage because moving is the action that made them visible.  However, if instead they were hidden and then made a Charge, they would get to attack from advantage, because the Charge (moving and attacking) is one Action.  
Using that same rule, you could move from Cover/Concealment-To-Cover/Concealment  to stay hidden.  This works because you have Hidden for the entire action that was going to cause you to lose Hidden (moving), but you can hide again at the end of the movement, assuming you end with cover/concealment.  Many classes have a power that gives them concealment if moving more than 3-squares.  This allows them to keep hidden even with out normal cover/concealment.  However, they need Total Cover/Concealment to initially get into the Hidden state.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

9 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:45 pm

Yes, ranged enemies could shoot at the last position with a -5 penalty.
If the PC is still there it's a hit.
If they moved, it's an auto miss.

A melee enemy could just attempt to move into the square they last saw the PC.
If the PC is still there, they'll know and can take a swing at -5. (can't move into an enemy square...)
If the PC has moved, they don't have to loose the attack and can take another action (like charge someone else...)

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10 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:14 pm

Ross

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If they move into the space does that hidden person become visible (unless invisible of course)?


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

11 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:29 pm

Ross wrote:If they move into the space does that hidden person become visible (unless invisible of course)?

I don't think they'd become visible unless whatever cover was used is not longer usable. They'd at least know where they are.

Say a PC has cover because of a tree, and the enemy somehow pushes the PC away from the tree. Are they visible now?

What if they walk up to the tree and the tree no longer provides cover.

Kinda like if the PC was in a dark room and hidden, then someone turns the light on.

No cover, no hidden.

At least that's how I see it...

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12 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:51 pm

Ross

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But if your entering the space they are in and you run into them they should at least be visible to the one that ran into them.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

13 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:52 am

Ross wrote:But if your entering the space they are in and you run into them they should at least be visible to the one that ran into them.

I still think it depends on what the PC is getting cover/concealment from.

If moving close to, around, or into removes the cover/concealment, then yes, they'd be visible.

If they're getting cover/concealment from an item or class ability, then they'd remain hidden but the enemy would know what square and could attack at -5.

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14 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:31 am

Ross

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So you could actual make a grab attack against A hidden opponent (at a -5 penalty) and still not see them. Seems kind of strange but I guess rules wise that is true.


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

15 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:50 am

Regarding moving into opponent squares, could a creature use their movement incrementally? e.g. if a monster last saw a PC two squares away before the PC became hidden, on the monster's turn, the monster uses its move action first. They move one square and now think they are next to the PC, they attempt to move into what they think the PC's square is and they are able to. So now they know the PC isn't there. The monster still has four squares of movement left so they try moving one square to the left and are able to. Then they try to move two squares to the right and cannot move into the second square so now, w/o a perception check, know where the PC is again.

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16 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:45 pm

Teramotos wrote:Regarding moving into opponent squares, could a creature use their movement incrementally?  e.g. if a monster last saw a PC two squares away before the PC became hidden, on the monster's turn, the monster uses its move action first.  They move one square and now think they are next to the PC, they attempt to move into what they think the PC's square is and they are able to.  So now they know the PC isn't there.  The monster still has four squares of movement left so they try moving one square to the left and are able to.  Then they try to move two squares to the right and cannot move into the second square so now, w/o a perception check, know where the PC is again.

Yes, as long as they have the movement and would rather hunt down the PC instead of focusing on a visible one.

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17 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:02 pm

That would make it so the monster "knows" where the pc is but I think they should still get teh -5. Because while they can know where something is by running into it it does not make that thing visible.

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18 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:49 pm

Ross

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Hidden Club wrote:Don't let the enemy FIND you. An enemy can spend a Minor Action to roll Perception, and if he beats your Stealth (you DID write it down, right?), you lose Hidden. As well, any enemy who attempts to move into your space automatically finds you, period.  

So I think you lose hidden automatically if someone attempts to enter your square, but if your invisible you would retain Full Concealment (-5 to hit).


_________________
CHARACTERS:
Morbius Von Kas - Vryloka/Blackguard [4e-Rainbow Warriors Campaign]
Man'Tis Man'Todea - Thri-Kreen/Berserker [4e-Slave Lords Campaign]
Danilo Rand - Monk/Human [5e-Princes of the Apocalypse Campaign]
Nathan Grey - Ardent (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Walt Dixon - Bladesinger (4e-Terran One Campaign)
Battlefield 4 Soldier: Saturnicus
Diablo III Battletag: Saturnus#1572
Neverwinter: @bobpatrick.com
XBox GamerTag: Drizityn


Kazoo the Kender: "Hmm, I'll take....the Wand of Wonder." The rest of the party regretted giving Kazoo the first treasure pick.
View user profile http://twitter.com/NWGamerDude

19 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:41 pm

... so, as soon as a monster attempts to enter an invisible PC's square, the PC effectively becomes visible? Monster thinking... "...if that mage who blasted me is invisible, he must be really weak and I know he's around here somewhere... maybe over here, nope. Well maybe here! Want to bash weak wizard... muhahaha..."

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20 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:11 pm

Teramotos wrote:... so, as soon as a monster attempts to enter an invisible PC's square, the PC effectively becomes visible?  Monster thinking... "...if that mage who blasted me is invisible, he must be really weak and I know he's around here somewhere... maybe over here, nope.  Well maybe here!  Want to bash weak wizard... muhahaha..."

There's a difference between no longer "hidden" and "visible".

If a monster attempts to move into a hidden PCs square, the PC looses his "hidden" status. (the monster knows exactly where the PC is)

Whether the monster has a penalty to his attack is determined by what cover/concealment the PC still has.

If the PC has "Cover" or "Concealment" the attack is at -2.
If the PC has "Superior Cover" or "Total Concealment" the attack is at -5.


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21 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:52 pm

So an invis pc would go down to total concealment but a hidden pc would go to found.

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22 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:32 pm

Raistlin wrote:So an invis pc would go down to total concealment but a hidden pc would go to found.

Invisible is "Total Concealment"

Hidden Club wrote:
"Concealment": Partial LOS failure, usually provided by a class feature, terrain feature, or magic item. You are NOT invisible and you CAN be seen. Concealment is enough to MAINTAIN Hidden, but not enough to BECOME hidden.

"Total Concealment": You are invisible. Nobody can see you, but unless you're also Hidden, they still know where you are. You can *become* Hidden, but you are not inherently Hidden.

"Invisible": You have Total Concealment. No, seriously, that's all Invisibility means. Nothing less, NOTHING MORE. Invisibility is NOT Hidden.

"Hidden": The state of being able to conceal your location. If you are Hidden, enemies have to guess your square. If you are not Hidden, they know where you are, at all times.


To recap: IF YOU ARE NOT "HIDDEN", YOUR ENEMIES KNOW WHERE YOU ARE, PERIOD, whether they can see you or not. If something doesn't SAY you are Hidden, you are not Hidden, period.

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23 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:39 am

Ah okay so invis aka total concealment is just that -5 but a hidden pc would go from hidden to total concealment if the monster was able to bump into him/her

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24 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:50 pm

Raistlin wrote:Ah okay so invis aka total concealment is just that -5 but a hidden pc would go from hidden to total concealment if the monster was able to bump into him/her

Almost... It might be better if you gave specific examples.

A "hidden" PC that looses hidden doesn't loose the level of cover/concealment that they have just by loosing "Hidden".

Ex1:
A PC attacks a monster, uses a minor to use a power to create darkness (burst2), then uses a move action to become hidden.

The monster uses a move action to move into the square the PC became hidden in.

Since the PC is still in that square, the monster is stopped one square short and has found the PC. The PC is still in the darkness so has Total Concealment (-5 to be hit).

Note: The PC became hidden at the end of the move action they became hidden. Not at the beginning or during.


Ex2:
A PC attacks a monster, uses a minor to use a power to create a cloud of fog (burst 3 grants concealment), then uses a class ability to move and make a check to become hidden.

The monster uses a move action to move into the square the PC became hidden in.

Since the PC is still in that square, the monster is stopped one square short and has found the PC. The PC is still in the fog and has Concealment (-2 to be hit).

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25 Re: Stealth: Rules of the Hidden Club on Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:51 am

Ken, thank you for your detailed and accurate responses. They are much appreciated and have helped me understand how we need to play concealed, invisible and hidden. Great contributions!

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