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Gargoyle question...

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1 Gargoyle question... on Sat May 05, 2012 4:41 pm

While in Stone Form, are Gargoyles considered helpless? Can you use a Coup de Grace on them?

They're sitting there like a statue and not trying to defend themselves...

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2 Re: Gargoyle question... on Tue May 08, 2012 8:02 am

Hmmm...I'm inclined to say, yeah, you can carefully aim your strike. Although I'm not sure that's what the creators of the monsters intended...discuss...

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3 Re: Gargoyle question... on Tue May 08, 2012 10:48 am

If they're considered helpless, that all but completely negates their stone form ability. I'm not considering them helpless, though they are potentially prone to being pushed off of buildings...

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4 Re: Gargoyle question... on Tue May 08, 2012 10:54 am

bradly wrote:If they're considered helpless, that all but completely negates their stone form ability. I'm not considering them helpless, though they are potentially prone to being pushed off of buildings...

Since they're not moving or trying to defend themselves can we get Combat Advantage against them?

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5 Re: Gargoyle question... on Tue May 08, 2012 11:44 am

"Helpless - You Grant Combat Advantage, You can be the Target of a Coup de Grace, Note, you're usually helpless because you're unconscious."

Unconscious - You're helpless, you take a -5 to all defenses, you can't take any actions, you fall prone (if possible), you can't flank.

So, a Gargoyle in Stone Form (an At Will Power) is clearly not Unconscious as it has Tremorsense and can take an action (to revert to normal form). So, that brings me back to is a Gargoyle in Stone Form "Helpless"?

Lets ask another question, is the Gargoyle "Immobilized"? Can't move from the space, but can be forced to move by a push, pull, or slide. I'd say Yes...

Is the Gargoyle "Restrained"? You're Immobilized (yes), you grant combat advantage, you take a -2 to attacks (well, he can't even attack in stone form), and can't be forced to move by a push, pull or slide.

I'd argue that the Gargoyle is clearly Immobilized and more so, there's a reasonable position that it's (self) Restrained. Does there have to be a force holding the creature in place for it to be Restrained. If it is restrained, that still doesn't make it "Helpless".

I think I've convinced myself that the Gargoyle should at least grant combat advantage. Still mulling over if it is Helpless...

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6 Re: Gargoyle question... on Tue May 08, 2012 12:07 pm

The reason I was thinking "helpless" was because they're not trying to defend themselves.

Any creature that's conscious would be trying to evade blows.

They make up for not being able to do anything with their DR30. "Normal" PC would have a hard time getting through that even with a critical.

Are the rules different because we're "super heroes" and have maxed stats?

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7 Re: Gargoyle question... on Tue May 08, 2012 8:02 pm

Hmmm, having "maxed" stats, how much would that affect damage? Even a normal PC would have thier primary stat maxed. I think the difference comes in when you have powers that add, not only the bonus of the normal stat to damage, but a secondary stat. Normal PC's might be able to add half again as much damage but us Superheros add a full 100% again. However, normal PCs would have more magic items than we do in the magic sparse Buffyverse; that would tend to balance out some.

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8 Re: Gargoyle question... on Tue May 08, 2012 8:45 pm

Ross

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I don't think gargoyles are considered helpless. They just can't take actions.

Stone Form At-Will
Effect: The gargoyle enters stone form until it ends the effect as a minor action. While in this form, it gains tremorsense 10 and resist 30 to all damage, gains 10 temporary hit points at the start of each of its turns, and cannot take actions except to end the effect. When the gargoyle ends the effect, it gains a +10 bonus to all damage rolls before the end of its next turn.

Petrified
While a creature is petrified, it is unconscious. In addition, it has resist 20 to all damage and doesn’t age.


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9 Re: Gargoyle question... on Tue May 08, 2012 8:53 pm

Many normal PCs start with either an 16+2 or 18+2 in their primary stat. Their secondary is then +16 or +14.

Having all 20's does affect damage output, defenses, skills, and Paragon Paths.

Angelus does a lot more damage than he would with normal stats. His primary stat is Dex, but he gets to add StrMod+3 to Flurries, and he has a stance that lets him add his StrMod again.

We also tend to have more extended rests in Buffyverse. This allows us to use our more powerful Dailies more often.


Buffyverse just started getting "magic sparse"... Up until ~16th each PC would get 1 or two items of their level (sometimes level+2). Now it looks like we get two items for the party per adventure. I just totaled up Angelus' items and he's just below the limit for a 17th level char. But I think I've only missed one session so far.

Angelus' total items in gp (236,940)
17th level PC (18th, 17th, 16th, 16th) is 240,000gp

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10 Re: Gargoyle question... on Tue May 08, 2012 8:55 pm

Ross wrote:I don't think gargoyles are considered helpless. They just can't take actions.

Stone Form At-Will
Effect: The gargoyle enters stone form until it ends the effect as a minor action. While in this form, it gains tremorsense 10 and resist 30 to all damage, gains 10 temporary hit points at the start of each of its turns, and cannot take actions except to end the effect. When the gargoyle ends the effect, it gains a +10 bonus to all damage rolls before the end of its next turn.

Petrified
While a creature is petrified, it is unconscious. In addition, it has resist 20 to all damage and doesn’t age.

No problem, just seemed odd that they wouldn't at least provide CA.

When they're in Stone Form, they're not hurting us.

When they leave Stone Form, they're not to difficult to kill. Twisted Evil

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11 Re: Gargoyle question... on Tue May 08, 2012 9:24 pm

Having all 20s you can make some damage dealing PCs
The Avenger I built can get past the 30 all resist.
She is built around one at-will power that does 1d12+51
All her other powers she is only +34 dam.

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